Apereo: The Most Influential Open EdTech Foundation You Never Knew About — Ian Dolphin & Anne-Marie Scott on the eLearn Podcast

This is the eLearning podcast, episode number 39. We come from a number of initiatives, going back around 20 years, where institutions saw open source licenses as easing the path to collaborate to sustain their software developments.

And we’ve grown over the years, so we’re part of a network of around 150 higher ed institutions and commercial partners. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to the eLearning podcast from Open LMS .com.

My name is Steven Ladek, and I’m the director at Open LMS. Today, I’m glad to introduce you to what is perhaps the largest open source eLearning organization you’ve never heard about. I’m talking about Apereo,

a global network of open source advocacy. Unlike other approaches to open source, Apereo is here not just to share their open source tools, but to help in your open source development and sustainability journey.

From networking and incubation to the consolidation of teams and communities, which give project sustenance for the long haul, Apereo’s executive director, Ian Dolphin, and board chair,

Ann Marie Scott, might just be the key allies you need in your open eLearning transformation journey. In this exciting and open -ended conversation, we talk about what is Apereo and how their community -based approach can be a radical departure from your conventional thinking about open source software.

We also talk about the Apereo umbrella, which houses dozens of different open ed tech projects ready for you to use, and how you could get your open source project into the mix as well.

We also discuss how, slowly but steadily, users find in open source an asset for institutional capacity and innovation, increasingly adopted by larger organizations and entire governments.

We also talk about what the next generation of open source enabled organizations and societies might look like. Finally, we talk about why open source can help foster a culture of,

well, open source values, that seep into the learning process. Could open source students be more self -reliant and collaborative? You’ll have to listen and find out. And if you want to learn more from Ann Marie,

Ian, and dozens of top global figures taking part in Apereo’s projects, you should not miss Open Apereo 21, which is their annual virtual event taking place this June from the 7th to the 11th.

If you want more information, just visit Apereo .org. Now, before we get started with the conversation, a quick word from our sponsors. The eLearning podcast is sponsored by the eLearning Success Summit.

Learn from more than 40 experts how to teach, work, and learn online without being overwhelmed. Get your free ticket to the summit at eLearningSuccessSummit .com and Open LMS .com,

your best source for news, information, and resources for eLearning professionals for more than 10 years. Get our free roundup of the week’s top news at Open LMS .com.

Hello, Ian. Hello, Anne -Marie. How are you today? I’m fine, Stephen. How are you? I’m well, thanks. Anne -Marie, how are you? I’m good, thanks. How are you? I’m fine. Excellent. I know that we are talking to you in different parts of the world.

So, Ian, where are you sitting? I’m sitting in the town of Kingston, a fun whole in the northern part of England. The northern part of– excellent. And, Anne -Marie, where are you? I’m in the city of Kamloops on the western coast of Canada in the interior British Columbia.

Wow. So, we’re– and I’m in Mexico. So, we’re all in different parts of the world. I’ve been starting all– every conversation the same way on this podcast, since we’re in this fantastic pandemic that has emphasized eLearning.

Just give me– you know, give me the three sentences. How– Ian, how’s your– how’s your pandemic going right now? How’s the– how’s COVID– what’s the COVID situation here at the– literally, the top of 2021? We’re recording this in the top of January,

2021. We just entered lockdown again. You know, it stays your all over again for us. And I think it’s the third lockdown we’ve had. Let’s hope this one works.

and sticks. But personally, you know, I’m fine, my family are fine, doing okay. – Excellent, and you, Emery, how’s things in Western Canada? – In BC,

okay. I mean, not great, but not terrible. I lived in Alberta prior to coming here and things have been a little diced here there. So not sorry to be living in a smaller city in the middle of nowhere in Canada.

I think it’s a little tougher down in Vancouver and around the Fraser Valley area, but where I am, thankfully, just not very many people. – Awesome, awesome.

You both are with an organization called Apereo. And Ian, I know you’re the executive director here. Why don’t you start off by just, you know,

give us, there’s, you’ve been around for a while. There’s literally thousands, hundreds of thousands of people that Apereo works with, you know, through your partner network and whatnot, but there’s still plenty of people who’ve never heard of you.

Why don’t you give us the two minute background on the organization? – Sure. So Apereo exists to help higher ed institutions adopt and develop sustainable open source solutions.

For learning for research collaboration and to a certain extent for infrastructure. We come from a number of initiatives going back around 20 years,

where institutions saw open source licenses as easing the path to collaborate to sustain their software developments. And we’ve grown over the years,

so we’re part of a network of around 150 higher ed institutions and commercial partners global. So we’ve got a strong presence in North America in the US and Canada,

but equally a strong presence in Europe, in South Africa and in Japan. – Fantastic. Amarie, give me, make the proposition for me.

When, if I’m a higher ed institution, Ian put it on the table there, right? And there’s software development I need to do. There is, you know, in today’s age, obviously, you cannot not be online.

What’s the value proposition for becoming a part of Apereo and, you know, the services that you find available, the collaboration you find available, like what are the what are the key pieces I would get? I think if you’re interested in pursuing open source and some of the projects that are within our portfolio are pretty big names,

like the Sakai LMS, for example, or CAS, which is a pretty globally and universally used authentication tool. I think the benefit of Apereo is that you come into a network,

and that’s always been the benefit of open source more generally. You work with a network of people like you to not just to use the project,

not just to use the software, but also to develop the software. So you play an active part in ensuring your needs are met and you have far more influence. So that’s,

and the benefit of Apereo really is that it provides easy access to that community because it provides kind of infrastructure and support. And then within that community, as Ian hinted at already,

there are commercial partners as well. We tend to have an opinion of open or a kind of stereotype of open source sometimes that you have to do everything yourself. And that’s not true at all.

You can run it in the cloud and you can have a commercial partner help you support it. So within our network, we have all of those sorts of flavors, people who do that and companies who provide those services.

So it really is about networking you with a whole community of people who can help you get what you need in order to be successful. Fantastic. The obvious, you know,

you’ve mentioned a couple of parts, Sakai, and we talk about Moodle all the time, one of the biggest open source player. What other software tools,

maybe Ian, this is a good question for you, would I think about other than the LMS? Is this plugins and things that attach to an LMS or these other standalone pieces? Is this like the student information service?

Like, what other, what are the pieces to either higher education or any, any education institution think about? Well, I mean, to focus on the LMS for a moment and the ways that we have of extending the LMS,

we’ve got some work around IMS global LTI and a software framework called SUGI, which is designed to help an institution plug in LTI tools into the LMS and make it more flexible.

Now that’s been used by institutions like the University of Dayton in the US already, and it’s still in our incubation process, so it’s not, you know, a finished piece of software.

But the University of Dayton have plugged in, you know, several tens of tools to their LMS, tools both large and small. So that’s one way that we can begin to add flexibility to the LMS.

But the software that Appario is under the Appario umbrella is a lot more various than that. We have e -portfolio solutions. We have an authentication solution in CAS,

which Anne Marie mentioned. We have distributed learning environments like LMS learning network out of PennStick. You know, there’s a whole bunch of stuff there,

which you can find out about on our website, which we don’t have time to really go into in detail. So yeah, I mean, that’s it really. Awesome. Would I be correct in,

you know, suggesting, do you collaborate with something like H5P, you know, super popular, huge open source content creation platform that they’re now, you know,

they’re putting the H5P hub together? Is that something that I would get through Appario, or is that a secondary service? How would that work, maybe, Anne Marie? I think, sorry,

go ahead, Emery. Yeah, I mean, H5P is a content type, really. So, yes, you can put H5P content into Sakai LMS. One of the other projects that’s within the Perio portfolio is Zerti,

which is an interactive content or learning content authoring tool. And that has H5P support as well as a number of other supports. It predates H5P.

So, when H5P came along, it built in the authoring abilities around H5P. So, yes, in the same way as you can get Moodle and plug H5P in or WordPress or whatever,

yes, you can do that with some of our tools. But Zerti, I think, is interesting because it is an authoring tool, and H5P being one of the outputs that you can use there. Fantastic.

One of the constant questions we always get, even though we’re at Open LMS, we’re huge supporters of the open source community is why open source, right?

There’s obviously the argument for total cost ownership. But Ian, maybe let me bring this over to you. Why is open source a good choice for either an institutional higher education?

I don’t know if you sort of delve into the corporate learning space as well, but just sort of stay in your wheelhouse. Why is this a choice that an institution wants to make? I think a lot of institutions approach open source for the reason you just indicated from the cost perspective.

And that’s quite important. Freedom from perceived licensing costs or other licensing costs is, well, can be critically important in a period where institutions are trying to scale up their offerings,

both amongst traditional and non -traditional learners. But really, I mean, I think we see that as being the beginning of wisdom, you know, the fact that institutions can individually and collectively innovate around open source software,

conceive a code, can change it if they feel they need to adapt it to their needs, makes open source a much more flexible solution. And we’re all about providing services which help institutions collaborate to take open source software further and you know it obvious the need to pull up a list of requirements and submit them to your vendor,

throw them over the wall and wait for something to come back. It lets institutions actively work on fixing their their own problems. I think lastly if an institution makes an investment in open source software it’s making an investment in its own capacity rather than just passing on through the means of a license fee,

someone else’s capacity and in a period like the one we’ve seen in the last 12 months where institutions have to adapt and have to develop often or actively, that institutional capacity can be a critical factor.

Fantastic yeah maybe Henry maybe you could speak to that about how a period maybe and if you want to add to that answer as well. What have you seen over the last year especially since you support open source,

we know that Moodle grew by leaps and bounds, I’m lucky enough to know Dr. Chuck, we talked with him over there at Sakai, I mean they were drinking from a fire hose, everyone in the e -learning sort of LMS universe was not amazed obviously,

right? e -learning took such a center stage and it’s going to continue. What has been your experience there and why have people either made the choice to then to choose and now through the second iteration,

we’re kind of in the second semester of we’re moving into the second semester of the normalization time. I just threw like five things on your table there,

what’s been your perspective from a period about what’s happening and how that process is moving along in terms of open source? So I’m just going to touch on the previous question quickly and then I’ll come on to that one because I think there’s one other element around adopting open source which sometimes feels counterintuitive to people and that’s about innovation.

I think we often tend to assume if we want to innovate that we need to partner with a commercial software provider because that’s how we can move faster but honestly my experience once you get into bed long term is you know product development is driven by a large number of customers and you may not necessarily get what you want in the timescale that you want it and any hinted at that a little bit you know working

on the problems that you need when you need them but I think when it comes to innovation there’s the getting started faster because you don’t have to go through an RFP process. It’s lower risk if it doesn’t work you can throw it away you’ve not burned as much money on it all you’ve done is built more internal capacity well that’s not a bad thing.

But then when you start to look at some of the really cutting edge stuff that people are interested in in the e -learning space and online education space more generally if you’re smart you can actually you can run on cloud platforms like Amazon web services and start to take advantage of things like AI as a service because you can do the work to through the software that you’re using to put the required hooks in

place so you really if as long as you’ve got that internal capacity or you’ve built that internal capacity you really can start to take quite big leaps and bounds without waiting for a vendor to bring bluntly what can often be a generic solution back to you you can do something tailored and you can move you know into some of these really cutting edge areas quite quickly.

That’s a huge I’m really glad before you go on I want to just emphasize that that sometimes we forget that commercial operations right there the way that they scale is by creating you know set solutions that then they you know they push out into the marketplace as rapidly as possible and so as you just said you may let’s not call it generic but you might get a set solution that,

you know, is supposed to work for many, many, many people. And you’re putting on the table, this is your opportunity to really create something that is unique and specific for your organization. But also, who knows,

maybe you will create something that is valuable for many other organizations. It’s a real, real interesting opportunity. Thanks for putting that perspective out there. – No, not a problem at all. I mean, by day, I work in a fully online university.

So we are, you know, trying to be at the cutting edge all the time and it’s a challenge for us. – So take us there, so take us there. So now that second part of that question was, we’re in the normalization now.

It’s, you know, online education and e -learning, it’s been around for 2030, you know, we’ve been around forever, but now it’s that the reality of it has set in with everyone that this is gonna be,

this is normal. Even when we return back, even when people are all inoculated with vaccines and we go back to school, being able to interact on a mobile device, et cetera, it has to be a part of your education consideration.

Where are things at right now in the Apereo community? And what are you seeing in terms of being prepared for that or making that normalization a reality?

You say you’re working for a fully online university, you know, as your day job. And just give me some perspective there. – I think at the moment, I mean, the people who are within our Apereo network,

you know, they’ve already made the choice to be in that network. We know that, yes, Moodle has scaled and Sakai has scaled. People who didn’t have an LMS have needed an LMS.

And I think a lot of that has often been outside of the higher education system. I think there’s probably another stage coming. We’ve all,

I mean, Zoom has become ubiquitous as a term for video conferencing now, like Googling has become a ubiquitous term for search. A lot of people have rushed to get an immediate solution.

And I think the reality of those immediate solutions by which I mean some of the licensing costs are going to start coming home to roost. and for institutions that haven’t had a huge amount of experience in online learning and who obviously now realize they need to build capacity I think we’re going to see as things kind of level off and we get through this period I think we’re going to see people sitting down and

being a bit more thoughtful you know we’ve done what we needed to do to get through and actually now we need to build capacity and what kind of capacity do we need to build so my expectation is I mean the people in it as I say people in our community have scaled up we haven’t had masses of new people join the community because I think everybody’s just tired and people have I think you know we know that people

have gone for we’ve caught a lot of a lot of us call it emergency remote learning rather than online learning you know it’s not the these are not courses designed for an online environment that kind of born digital so I think we’re going to see a lot of that activity because yes you’re right I mean fully online may not be here to stay for a huge number of institutions they are face -to -face teaching organizations a

lot of students want that experience but the use of technology within teaching blended learning I think we’re going to see a massive uptick in that space yeah and again just to sort of recap on what you just said as well that the mindset from the emergency you know look we had to throw things online and let’s sort of create the bridge until we can get back to normal my prediction is the same as yours where the

demand from the student population both not only in higher ed but in the high you know the k through 12 space definitely in corporate space of think about it differently right and born as you said born digital or just you know born with the idea of look you’ve got to make a differentiation between synchronous and asynchronous and how you think about how you structure a class,

micro -learning, all of these pieces, incredibly important. And we haven’t gotten there yet. There is still such a large group of individuals that are instructors or teaching professionals who are like,

“Look, just get me through this so I can get back to the classroom.” So, interesting. Ian, I want to shift for a second, because Anne Marie brought up something very interesting there. As I’m thinking about becoming a part of a perio,

who does this? Is this the IT administrator in a higher ed university? Is this the L &D coordinator in a corporation? Is this a professor? Who signs up for a perio?

And then as a secondary piece of that, when you’re signing up to become a part of a collaborative, large network like this, how do I raise my hand? How do I get noticed? How do I get pulled in and become a part of the community and feel like I’m welcome?

Sure. Well, I mean, the answer to the first part of your question is, in one sense, easy and in another sense, quite complex. Depending on the particular, people, institutions tend to approach those specific pieces of software.

And it really depends where that specific software functionality sits in an organization who approaches us. So we find, if you look at,

you know, if you look through our contact list, our membership list, you would find different pieces of different institutions as a perio met contact members in that space.

I do, if you don’t mind, want to hop back to that earlier question though, because one thing that I think we’re in danger of doing perhaps is looking at responses from our part of the world,

you know, from me in the UK, from Canada, from the US. And responses are very different in different parts of the world. And being a global community, we see a lot more of that.

So, you know, the challenges for our South African colleagues are very different from from the challenges for our North American colleagues. Responses such as those in a partner organization in France,

a support I, which are putting together effectively national, flexible national services for institutions and growing them to meet the needs of French IRAs,

seem a very alien thing to someone sitting in an institution in the United States or perhaps elsewhere in North America. So, I did want to emphasize that point because we’re a very diverse community with a bunch of needs to meet and represent.

I think that’s a really great point in terms of your last question, Stephen, about who contacts, you know, which part of an organization we’re getting touch. Because actually in France, there is a mandate from the government across all of the public sector to embrace open source as the first choice.

Essentially, the state in whatever way you want to see it should own its own assets and that flows down into its software assets. So, you know, higher education and public sector education more generally is no different.

And I think that’s true to a lesser or greater extent in other parts of Europe as well. There’s a fairly robust open source movement in Germany and quite a lot of use of open source in Spain as well.

And it’s a mixture of cost savings and ownership but a lot of it’s driven not by individual institutions but by regional or governmental policy.

So, sometimes individuals are coming to us because it’s just the obvious thing to do or it’s the thing they must do. Absolutely. Which is also interesting. And I just want to take the moment to thank,

you know, Ian, both of you and Marie for putting that on the table. We’ve been lucky enough on the show here, you know, we interviewed a woman in the middle of Congo, who, you know, her organization and her community set up an online system to deal with the pandemic,

you know, last year. We’ve had a couple of people on from South Africa as well. One of them’s coming up later. His name is Robert Paddock. You may have heard of him. You know, he’s now in the Valenture Institute. He started an organization called Get Smarter as well.

And I would love to put the call out to you, you know, in your network, if you have individuals, Africa, Asia, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, who would be interested in telling their story,

we’d love to hear from them for sure. Going back to that. So maybe you take me through two parts, Ian, not only, you know, where do I start?

It sounds like you kind of come into a period and then you have a specific need that you want answered. And then that introduces you to the community and maybe your relationship grows from there.

Does that kind of characterize it? Usually have you– Yeah, I think that’s broadly right. I mean, think of it as a set of nested communities in a certain sense. So your first point of contact is probably going to be in the software that you’re specifically interested in.

You know, from that, you might learn a bit more about some of the cross -cutting initiatives we have. And they can be as seemingly mundane as open -source licensing or can be very broad,

like learning and teaching, where we try and provide threads between those individual software communities and cross -fertilized ideas. Undoubtedly,

in the past, one of the ways that folks got to know other people in the organization has been at events. You know, we organize one main event every year.

We have other face -to -face events with partners. And like everyone else, we’ve had to make some very significant changes for that. So we’re driving all our events very,

very much online and having some success in attracting new constituencies. But it is always a challenge to provide that kind of same facility for meeting around the water cooler in an online event that you have in face -to -face.

And that’s something, you know, which quite frankly, we don’t have the answers to, but we’re working with a lot of other people to develop our capacity in that respect. But yeah,

you’re going to approach, you’re going to approach a period through an individual software community, almost certainly in the first instance, and then kind of fan out and see where the other, where the connections can be made.

– Fantastic. So then take me through, you know, maybe, Emery, you could answer this, why I trust a period, right? And maybe this is the incubation process that Ian referred to earlier.

How do you choose the software that you’re recommending or how does, you know, the pieces that the community recommends and then ultimately collaborates around, how does that get done?

– I think that question of trust is an interesting one. I think one of the things that sometimes scares people about open source is some sense of sustainability,

is it’s going to persist. Now, that’s to some extent a product of your own effort. If you put the effort in, then yes, it will, because you’re maintaining it,

but, you know, nobody wants to be left as the only person maintaining a project as well. And that’s really one of the things that a period does by creating that community and sustaining that community through things like the conferences,

but the online groups and the networks and the frameworks that we provide. And we provide financial money handling frameworks for our software projects.

We can help with sustainability. And this is what our incubation process is really designed to do, is designed to bring a software project into the apparel umbrella,

but put in place certain pieces of the puzzle that we know will stand out in good stead and make sure that it is sustainable and that it does fit.

Some of that’s about helping put a financial handling structure around it, but quite a bit of that is also about helping people put proper governance in place around a project.

Often these things are the babies of a fairly small group to start with, so how do you grow that group? Well, we can help with publicity and we can help attract more people.

As Ian says, we can tell people who are already in our community about new things, so that’s that kind of finding out and seeing what else is under the umbrella. But putting in place those governance processes so that,

yes, as new people come on and want to participate, there’s a way and a mechanism for them to do so. So I suppose to some extent we help individual projects become sustainable and find new audiences,

but we also help create some of that trust and create the mechanisms because in the nicest possible way, sometimes you can have a really great project,

a really great software project because you’re a really great developer, but you may not be good at some of those other pieces. And why would you if you’ve never done them before? And that’s the benefit. That was the nicest way of saying that that I’ve heard in a long time.

Why should people be good at everything? And that’s the power of being part of a community. You pull on the strengths of a large group of people. And in our case, you pull on the strengths of a large group of people who’ve done this before.

You mentioned Dr. Chuck earlier. We have some really old hands in this space. I don’t mean to call them old, but we have some experienced hands in this space.

Let’s put it like that. Some experienced hands in this space. And that’s one of the real benefits. It’s that power of community. And we know what works.

and we know what will sustain. And we’ve seen a number of projects. Miserty is one on task as another one, so on task is a small sort of learning analytics,

data driven feedback tool, mainly picked up in Australia, and really has a lot of application globally, but how do they reach beyond Australia,

while coming into a group like Apereo, instantly makes that tool available to French higher ed, South African higher ed, our network in North America and Europe.

Same with Xerty, that was a UK based government funded open source project, had a kind of solid but fairly small core in the UK. And as a result of coming into Apereo,

again has been able to grow. And it’s not just growing use, it’s growing the number of people who contribute to it as well, which I think kind of speaks to the question, how do you get in?

Well, part of the structure we put in place is one that ensures you can get in and you can play a part. Awesome. And I think that I’d like to add a couple of things to that.

I mean, I think you approach trust from kind of the little things perspective and the big things perspective. And the very nature of Apereo is a membership organization largely of other higher ed institutions,

does an awful lot to inspire trust, we hope. The fact that it’s collegially governed that we have things like elections for a foundation board,

or that we have governance processes, as Anne Marie said, I think are important. We also look at the micro, you know, I mean, we, we encourage all our software communities to produce statistical information information like the number of commits in a six month period and a bunch of other stuff and publish them openly on the website.

So we approach the trust issue on, on a number of different, a number of different levels. Final question for both you, Ian, I’ll start with you.

As you now look forward to 2021, this is a question I ask everybody who’s on the show. Is there anything that you see coming down the pipe? Six months from now,

a year from now, maybe it’s, you know, the normalization of e -learning. It could be a shiny new object, it could be a process, it could be something. What are you most excited about and what are you looking forward to?

What I’m most excited about is the way the pandemic is actually driving people together in our part of the world and in learning technology particularly.

So, you know, we could name all kinds of technological wonders, but I think actually the fact that organizations like ours, and we’ve always had an idea of ourselves as being part of a broader network,

which is why we work with colleagues like the ones in France I mentioned, and in other similar groups in other parts of the world, we’re just about to sign an MOU with an organization in Japan.

So, we’ve always had that network approach, but the fact that I think we’re going to draw organizations and the people within those organizations closer together to solve higher ed’s problems and to solve learners’ problems is the most exciting aspect of the year as far as I’m concerned.

Fantastic. Excellent. Emery, same question. For me, I think the pandemic has shone a light on a lot of inequities we knew already existed and online education is a double edged sword.

In one sense, it can be far more accessible, but in another sense, it can be completely inaccessible. A lot of it’s to do with context and where students are.

And you know here in Canada, for example, students in Indigenous reserves who have decided to shelter there often don’t have good connectivity. And so now we’re completely cut off.

And we know a lot of our students rely on community internet, you know, Starbucks or whatever, or don’t have particularly great IT equipment.

So I think that we’re going to see a lot more focus on the learner experience and not just in terms of the tools and systems and software that institutions use,

but also the extent to which students’ materials or circumstances allow them to participate. I don’t think we can be blind to that anymore. I think we’ve maybe thought about it in terms of accessibility,

but we’ve not thought about it in terms of that wider kind of social justice access to education question. And we can’t ignore people’s materials or circumstances.

We’re sitting looking at each other in our houses these days. So true. And I’ll just re -emphasize that point for you. I’m sitting in the country of Mexico where, you know, a solid 75 % of students,

especially in the K -12 universe, are being taught through the TV because they do not have internet access. They do not have the ability to be online just because of infrastructure or financial situation or whatever.

And, you know, this is now going on, you know, 14 months. You know, we’re already seeing the calls of a lost generation here. So we need to, this is a problem that needs this community,

maybe not a perio, obviously, but the e -learning community could really take a stand on it and make a move forward. Great way to end the conversation. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Emery and Ian.

I look forward to seeing where things continue to go. And I hope that we get to talk again in the future. Thank you. Thanks again for tuning in to today’s episode of the e -learning podcast.

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